Second Learning in later life/ Grundtvig project meeting

Selb (Germany)

16 – 19 January 2008


First meeting day : Thursday 17/01/08. 1

Project communication means. 2

1 – Website. 2

2 – Online facilities on Google. 2

Actual state of project tasks and  future deadlines. 2

Tasks  no 2 and 4. 2

SOG : Senior Olympic Games (task 5) 3

Task number 6 : intergenerational communication. 4

Anschluss cafe. 4

Second meeting day  : Friday 18/01/08. 5

Meeting with Czech juniors. 5

Project LOGO.. 6

Access to modern technologies (task 1) 6

France. 6

Poland. 8

Spain. 8

Finland. 9

Germany. 9

Next project steps. 10

What  do we prepare for task no 3 (next meeting in  Finland) ?. 10

Next steps for other tasks. 10

Conclusions and new ideas  - after the meeting in Germany. 10


First meeting day : Thursday 17/01/08


Participants :


Lenka Prikrylova (Czech republic)

Petra Pavlasova (Czech republic)

Michaela Hermannsdoerfer (Germany)


Therese Rodriguez (Spain)

Carmen  Rodriguez  (Spain)


Marja  Toivanen (Finland)

Matti Tossavainen (Finland)

Aarne Toivanen (Finland)


Monique Epstein (France)

Françoise Pettelat (France)


Lidia Maria  Jedlinska (Poland)

Renata Augustyn (Poland)




Speech of  Dieter Batrla  who is the Head of Selb Volks HochSchule:


Project communication means

1 – Website

The black colour of the picasa albums should be changed (Monique task)


2 – Online facilities on Google

SUGGESTION: The facilities offered by Google, online documents sharing and Google discussion groups will be used.

TASK: A google account will be created

WHO: Monique

OUTPUT: for improved project communication will be used

-         the google documents facility

-         the google groups

DEADLINE: 31.January

Actual state of project tasks and  future deadlines

Tasks  no 2 and 4


Tasks 2 and 4 are the subjects which will be finalized  in   Spain in January 2009

We need time to test the new methods

For June 2008 we need one template

Then practice from October to  December  08

And finalize in January 2009


Templaty budou plněny a zkoušeny až do ledna 2009.


Questions for tasks 2 and 4

Questions for :

-         task 2 = introduction of different teaching methods

-         task4 : new teaching methods : conceiving and testing

have been prepared by Poland and France


Task 4 theoretical part - Theoretical questions

SUGGESTION: Michaela (Germany ) will add some modifications to questions for task 4.

After these modifications, they will be sent to all partners or/and put on the Google DOCS and

WHO (Michaela, Monique)

DEADLINE: All partners must answer the questions before the end of May 2008

The answers will be published on the website

OUTPUT: practical recommendations, as one of the  outputs of our project.


Task 2 practical part - Lesson plan template

SUGGESTIONS: Templates will be filled out in the period January 2008-January 2009 as it takes time to test it in partners organizations.

It is advisable to add the ages of the participants in the “notes “ part and add learners motivation.

Partners can make several lesson templates for different levels of courses.

These templates will be put on the website so that people can download/use  freely  (this must be written clearly) them  with a mention that people (from outside the project )can send us their own template to publicize on the website.

Also must be mentioned the possibility to go and discuss more about the subject  by joining the Google Group.

On a voluntary basis,  partners  will use real course supports. AT SEVILLA MEETING WILL BE SHOWN ONE LESSON BY EACH PARTNER

OUTUP: Filled lesson templates to use in lessons

WHO: Lenka (creation of template), all partners (testing)

DEADLINE: June 31st (filling the templates)

                     January 20th (testing it)

SOG : Senior Olympic Games (task 5)


A - Proposals for SOG


France prepared  a document with several type of questions


  1. computer hardware knowledge
  2. computer software usage
  3. usage of emails
  4. usage of internet : practical questions
  5. knowledge of Europe
  6. general culture

Questions of the sets 4,  5 and 6 are supposed to be filled in with the help of Internet


B - Remarks and suggested improvements


Set no1 - Hardware OK

Suggestions : add question : how do I know that the printer works?

Sets 2 and 3 :

Questions should be more like a practical exercise and more precise (see Spanish document)

Set no 4 : use of Internet is OK but must be more concrete and therefore adapted to each country

Set no5  is OK


Important for sets 4 ,5 ,6 : as to force students to use the internet , they must give the link of the website where they found the answers of the questions


C - Organization


NOTE : We need a template as an output for the report  and to help organize the SOG


Until latest end of march  2008 :

Finland will add questions to set no 6 = general culture

The people who suggested a set no 7 for a mixture of all together (as look for info, download, send to teacher, copy, etc...) should send their contribution to Theresa

Spain sends back the revised questions (especially changing  sets 2 and 3) wile taking into consideration some of the 20 questions proposed by Poland and disseminate them into the appropriate categories


In April  : exchange of comments by email or google documents or google group for little improvements

In each country set no 4 is adapted to local needs


End of april  2008 : SOG questions are ready


May 2008 (or latest beginning of June before meeting in Finland) : SOG take place in each country

To take part in lottery (WINNERS WILL BE IN Krakow) one has to fill out and answer all questions.

The n umber of participants depends on each institution

The SOG can be done on different days in different groups

Or altogether on one day with press (journalists) invited – if possible

One person in each country will be designed as being the “winner”, even if it is only by “lottery”, because people do not like real “competition”

The 6 winners can  have a free visit of  an English course and will  travel to Poland to participate to the final meeting in June 2009.

In Krakow, there will be a final competition between the 6 senior students of the first selection


October 2008  :  we decide if we do another (second )  part of SOG in 2009



Task number 6 : intergenerational communication

This subject was not talked about

But France will send out  around June some examples of subjects which could be used as discussion basis in intergenerational meetings and other partners will be asked to add other suggestions.

The basic subject is to talk about communication/relationship between juniors et seniors.


Anschluss cafe


In the afternoon, a meeting was organized in the place used for “Anschluss Café” with the seniors who usually attend the activity.

The activity begun on the 6th of  November 2007.

Activities are offered twice a week

See programs on Google docs /website

Open discussion with all the present seniors.

The first aim seems to be the fact of meeting other people, but an important part of the seniors are also interested by computers and some even come with their laptops if they need to solve a technical question.

A local journalist made pictures and wrote an article “Selber Tagblatt” newspaper : see “media and project”  webpage



Café Anschluss is a great idea because people are in touch with computers and with other  people



Second meeting day  : Friday 18/01/08




Speech by the Maire Wolfgang Kreil from Selb town municipality :

-Young people leave the town

-In the next years , there will be more and more seniors

- They have a project to rebuild houses in a way that they be easy to enter for old people = no steps


Meeting with Czech juniors



The four present Czech juniors are teachers and teach ICT .



They are teaching seniors both   at home and at school

Some seniors have computers at home

For the seniors who don’t have a computer at home, the students come with their own laptop (each student of the school –which is a private school – has his personal computer)

Once a week in general for one senior.

Most seniors have already worked on computers


The organisation of these courses is composed of :

-         8 young teachers

-         3 team managers

-         1 webmaster who takes care of the site :

The young teachers have meetings with the team managers to decide what subjects they have to teach and about the teaching planning.

Seniors do not pay : courses are free.



The students  created leaflets and distributed them and put them in senior clubs


Advantages for young people :

The interest for the young teachers is to see how they feel as being themselves teachers and evaluate it as a future profession.

They learn a lot about life from old people as they talk they talk also about life experience

If the experience successful,  in future they would be possibility to give credits to students


Remarks :

The pace is slower when teaching seniors

The most difficult is to be patient



Seniors are very  kind to young teachers

Seniors are happy to joint the project

They like individual courses

Juniors get closer to seniors


Project LOGO

Several logo proposals were given by young Czech and one logo by Germany.

The criteria for the choice was to have a picture which is stylised ( simple to understand ), not overloaded  because it might used with different reduction percentages .


Final decision :

We will have 2 logos : one for the project (german proposition) and one for the SOG (czech proposition)

The project logo (german) must be modified as

-         to have some yellow stars ( in yellow)

-         change the brown colour to yellow

-          the name “eseniors” in dark blue

The other logo is more used for SOG and cybercafé (when they will exist!)



Access to modern technologies (task 1)


This is the dedicated subject of the Selb meeting .

And  the different contributions from all the partners will be concatenated into one of the projects OUTPUT RECOMMENDATIONS document.



The subject must be divided in hardware and software access problems with in-between, the problem of Internet access.


1 – Hardware access


The cost of hardware has decreased.

Most of our middle and upper class seniors can afford to buy a computer (generally laptop).

In many cases, their children buy computers as Christmas presents (for example), which, by the way, pushes the parents to begin and learn ICT.

But, as an non-profit  organization,  we have the possibility to get – nearly for free - second hand recycled computers.

We are in contact with intermediate structures who get the computers from big structures like  banks, government or town structures, electricity company , etc  when they decide to change  part of their computer parks.

And we give for free and install  these computers  either for private people who do not have the financial  possibility to buy their own computer or in public activity centres where we give our courses, when they have no or not enough computers or , also, for welfare organisations.


One must also speak of some new commercial projects of low cost computers like the ASUS company is going to offer in the next month for 100 euros. But these computers have a very small screen and have very little evolution possibilities.


Some other aspects should be mentioned, when speaking about hardware :

-         some people acquire MACINTOSH computers (mostly on recommendation of their family using these computers when working in graphics businesses):; these computers are very beautiful, easier to use then normal PC’s (once you have been a little bit initiated), have no Viruses problems BUT they are more expensive and it is difficult to find teaching courses as the demand is very little.

-         A company called ORDISSIMO proposes a simplified computer (based on LINUX – also no viruses!) for seniors where you have only prefabricated buttons (one for mail, one to surf, one to write a letter…).

To me,  it is  a little bit like a Fisher Price Toy computer for babies, BUT it can be useful for Alzheimer sick people as simplifying the access and avoiding problems.



2 – Internet access

This is, in some way, a real problem.

In France the cost of Internet access is approx 30 euros/ month.

And this is the same for all providers (as well ADSL providers like Free, Wanadoo, NeufTelecom, Alice then Cable access providers like NOOS/ Numericable).

Some people cannot afford their cost when they have very little pensions.

So one solution is to go to cyber cafés ( 1 or 2 euros per hour), some MacDonald’s cafes or , for free, in some public libraries.

Another opening comes from the fact that the town of Paris is trying to cover all Paris with Free WIFI (wireless fidelity) hotspots.

But one thing to be done would be to  talk to some big Internet access providing company and convince them to make a discount to seniors who have no financial means.


3 – Software and  learning to use ICT courses


Software problems can be used by using old versions of Microsoft software (Windows 98 is completely free, or Windows 2000,…)

And , for instance, for text processing using Open Office instead of WinWord… as it has exactly the same features (only sometimes a little bit more complicated to use as for orthography corrector or foreign languages).


As for learning how to use these tools, which is one important aspect of the access to modern technologies, there are 2 possibilities :

-         private lessons :

we provide this service in the frame of a governmental politics which is called “Personal services” – especially for old people staying in their homes. The help of the state comes in the form of an income tax reduction of 50% of the price paid for private lessons (for instance , if a senior pays 45 euros to our organisation, he will get back 22.50 euros  in paying less taxes or, even, if he pays no taxes he will get the money. – this up to 1000 euros per year.  Of course this price is still very high for a lot of people. So , for people with difficult situations , we provide free service at home with the help of volunteer persons.

-         group lessons :

we provide lessons in public cultural or social centres in different places in Paris, when they have a room dedicated to computer use. In average there are 4 to 8 computers in a room. Our courses are done in little groups , not more then 4 students per teacher. The cost is, of course , less than that of private lessons, especially because we are bind to give big discount for people with difficult financial situations  by some agreements we have with the public places who enable us to use their computer rooms.


4 – Conclusion

It is an “every days” work , for our association, to find financial help from government, region, town and local authorities, private sponsors  because the income we get from group courses does not cover the real cost of the teacher’s salary, even if we have the help of volunteers – because the cost of having one teacher fro only 4 students is very high.

Our second “job” would be to find volunteers.





In Poland the situation is  somehow different because the services are given by   a library , as for some others, it is given in or by schools.

Computer access is given by Regional Public Library in Krakow and

The Business and European Information Centre  (part of the Library) which provide help for Seniors to access the database of the library and to get general information about regulations useful for every day’s life .

Must also be mentioned the German-Polish association, who have their own computers and cooperate  with the library.

See PowerPoint presentations of

- the Regional Public Library in Krakow

- the Business and European Information Centre


Access to hardware :

 - 12 computers in computer reading room

 - 5 computers in Regional reading room

Trainings (with low cost participation) have been organized for readers of the library to learn how to use their free access to computers and access the  library’s catalogue and lending facility database, with personal username access.

Most teachers are young  : 25 years old


Conclusion :

In Poland the library courses meet a big demand. It is not a problem to find interested senior people as Krakow is university city and old people are educated.

The cost of buying  hardware , even for organisations, is still a problem.



The situation in Spain is similar to that in  France

National governement : part compulsary

Half cummunity can decide to use th emoney they get from governement for what they want


Microsoft is omnipresent in Spain

The local government sent 15 computers

Internet connection costs 40 euros per month  but , if you add telephone, it is a total of  70 euros without TV


 Powerpoint presentation


General situation


Schools and public libraries are very well equipped in hardware and software, but many senior citizens are not familiar with the use of them. In the libraries internet can be used without cost. At home internet connection is cheap: 10 - > euros/month

Similarly there are more cellular telephones than inhabitants, but older generation cannot use them or uses only very elementary functions. The trend by the authorities is to persuade people to use cellular telephones as repairing phone lines is expensive in a densely populated country.

Average bit rate (2 megabyte..etc) is not the fastest in Europe (for Finland)

But you can find up to 24 megabyte/sec.



Access to hardware, software and internet

Foibe has 16 computers which were bought second hand. They are equipped with basic Microsoft software (Word, Excel, Power Point).  All of them have internet connection. They are placed in the library and can easily be used  by as well those living in Foibe as visitors to the day center.


As Foibe is an independent foundation it cannot get state or municipality subsidies. To keep the fees low is only possible with voluntary teaching staff.

The day center is not situated in any of the city centers which influences the number of participants. Most of the residents of the center are old and have health problems which hinders them to participate.

Many retired people either have low income or are not used to pay for participation. This means that only a nominal fee can be collected.

New ways to inform seniors of the course pool must be found as we cannot afford advertising in newspapers. Brochures in libraries are used, but reaching many more seniors is a demanding task.


Present situation

We have two volunteers and students from near-by technical university for nursing have helped in various ways. New volunteers would be useful.


Basic courses in ICT are a regular part of supply.

Two courses in using cellular phones were given last December.

31.1. Course in digital banking

7.2.   Use our cellular phone (elementary course)

14.2. Do not be afraid of computer. Course for those who have never used it.

27.3. Use your cellular phone (for those who can use basic functions)

10.4. English with computer


In addition we have plans to open a net coffee like Café Anschluss.

Students from polytechnics have open a Wellness-TV which can be an embryo for  interactive home TVs

Foibe has internal TV, which gives the residents a possibility to get internal information.



Answers to the 7 questions


The vhs Selb offers different courses particularly with regard to elder people since 1999. The subjects are new technologies, health care also as given talks on different themes.


  1. Access to hardware (and software)


3 computer reading rooms:

  • 16 computers with Windows Vista, office 2007, accounting software, Adobe, Internet
  • 18 computers with windows 2000, office 2000, accounting software, Internet
  • 14 computers with windows xp, office 2003, Adobe, InDesign, Photoshop, Internet


Every room with printer, scanner, beamer


1 Internet-Café with 3 computers, Widows 2000, Office 2000, Internet, printer, scanner

(free using)


  1. Access to Internet :including offering free Internet access


Computer reading rooms can be used during courses. Internet – Café is free to use during the opening time and also if there is an agreement of a date.


Access to internet is free all the time, but no WIFI (the walls in our old house are too thick)



  1. Basic ICT training  in groups for low cost participation


    • Free trial offers for visitors of Café Anschluss, different subjects about  90 Minutes
    • short courses particularly for visitors of Café Anschluss, subjects depends on what is desired (5€ a day)



  1. Basic training for new technologies (telephone, Skype,..)


  • Basic computer operation for people without any experience: how to deal with a computer
    5 meetings x 90 min (once a week)

  • Computer training advanced: word processing, spread sheet, internet browser, image processing, using a digital camera, Skype internet telephoning
    4 – 8 meetings x 180 min(once a week or weekends)



  1. Free volunteer assistance  : finding  and training  volunteers for home computer assistance and training (under others for disabled people who cannot come to group courses)



There is no such activity carried out actually.
The participants of “Café Anschluss” aids one another. We plan to qualify young people/students of high school, to teach elder people and to give home computer assistance


  1. Finding sponsors for hardware or different grants for adult education


  • Lions Club signalized, that they will award a grant to qualify young people.
  • Participants has been complimentary involved in the work of “Café Anschluss” since the beginning
  • Teachers for free offers are working unsalaried


  1.   State of the art in each country


Inhabitants absolute:              16.700                       100,0 %

age 65+                                    4.390                         26,3 %

less than 18:                            2.520                         15,1 %


The population of Selb grows old. Every year the part of 65+ aged people is more. A lot of elderly people live alone, reasonable because the younger people (sons and daughters)  couldn’t find a job here and must leave the region. Without using new technologies there is no possibility to get in contact with the family.




The problem in making seniors interested in using the internet.

They are afraid of getting Viruses on their computers

There is no financial problem to  acquire hardware.

Seniors are afraid of security  problems (for instance in  e-banking or buing on the Internet)

so they prefer using computers at school

One of the courses is using internet to buy from ebay.

Also the adsl connection does not exist in all places in the area.

The cost of adsl is 100 euros/month

German seniors don’t use mobile phones because numbers are to little to see

and they cannot remember or see the long telephone numbers

and they do not know how to save numbers


Offered courses are :

-  course is for beginners (coming)

they will step by step explain word by word

5 afternoons once a week

Price : 30 euros (6 euros per afternoon)

At the end , people will be able to go to normal course for computers

- special courses  for digital camera, photo

- training in skype (in future)


Senior courses are in the afternoon, as they do not want to go out in the dark,  and slowlier than normal courses


At the moment there are no young teachers

But they will try  and to offer didactic course how to train old people with outside help ( Lyon’s club) to qualify young people


Conclusion :

There are no home courses and no e-learning

In general  people not only to learn about ICT but also  to meet and see other people


Next project steps

What  do we prepare for task no 3 (next meeting in  Finland) ?

Each partner has to prepare a presentation about every interesting activity in his institution : ICT or other activities

( for instance foreign language training) with the aim to exchange experiences

Next steps for other tasks

This part was discussed on Friday.

This information is contained in the description of the tasks in the first part of the document.

Conclusions and new ideas  - after the meeting in Germany

Market of courses for seniors is growing

There will be a link between Czech and German partners to broaden the offer of courses for broader education

Lenka wants to make more courses for seniors

Finland understand that it is important to organize something similar to “Anschluss Café”

The French partner would also like to set up something similar.

The idea was given to publicise about courses by putting  flyers at doctors and in churches